Surgical Worries

Mel Blacke

Mel Blacke

Well-Known Member
So it is done and Fiona is spayed. The surgery went routinely and everything went fine. However, she whined and whimpered all the way home in the car . We figured that she would be groggy so we put her in the crate. She seemed to settle down for a moment although she still whimpered and cried. That was the calm before the storm. It was an error in judgement on my part. Keep her calm they told me----NOT!!! The veterinary tech told me to give no pain medication until the next day in the morning and her pain shot should last until then. It didn't seem to be the case. She also was freaked out by the cone collar. She threw what amounted to a tantrum in the crate where all four feet cleared the ground and she used her hind legs to dig pull the safety plastic cone collar off over her head which was tied to her regular collar with gauze, strangling herself in the process which only increased her panic. I flew to the pet store to buy an inflatable collar since the cone collar caused such agitation---it seemed to soothe her. It was a tough, tough night---she whined whimpered and cried all night long. I put her crate on the bed....she cried and cried....so I put her on a leash and wrapped it around my hand with just enough tension to wake me if she moved to get off the bed or chew at her stitches. It was a fitful sleep but at least we got some rest. She did however respond to the pain meds this morning and seems to be doing better--sleeping peacefully. I requested a sedative for her to keep her calm during the two week recovery process. She will get her first dose this afternoon.
 
I sorry it turned out like this. Gabby had a difficult time adjusting to the cone as well. I thinking about placing a cone on Hoshi just so he can get used to it in case it's ever needed.

I would make sure and tell your vet everything that happened. Maybe he or she can make better arrangements next time. Hope she's feeling better and glad she didn't hurt herself. :heart:
 
I'm so sorry you both had a miserable night. I've always had vets tell me the girls must stay overnight after a spay. I guess I understand the need now. Hope the rest of recovery goes better.
 
We did go back to the vets the following day to do a quick check. He said given her breed, her reaction wasn't all that unusual. The incision looked fine and essentially the only thing that could go wrong would be if we don't subdue her activity level or let her chew at the incision. The whirling in circles and screaming was the really tough part. What a nightmare this has been. We pretty much keep her leashed in the house with the cone on---the vet's opinion was that the air pillow would not keep her from worrying the incision. Restricting her activity level is what I see as the main challenge facing us....this is going to be a tough three weeks.
 
Mel Blacke said:
He said given her breed, her reaction wasn't all that unusual.
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:( Saying that didn't help in anyway. He should have provided a solution instead--at least offering to see you and Fiona for any problems.
 
Why would your vet say something like that? I have never heard that and my various vets have never said anything like that. I'm sorry Fiona had the reaction she did but I've had several dogs who have had surgeries and pain and none of the have had that sort of reaction, nor did my vet seem to think they would because of their breed.
 
She is back!! Fi is acting like herself today. This morning when I got up to go to work, she stole Aunt Pattie's hat and gloves, snatched up the bills that fell out of my pants pockets, picked up my socks to give them the attention that she felt they deserved while laying on my clothes as I showered. Thank goodness!! Not one episode of whirling. I am so relieved. We were worried that there was really something wrong with her or that this neurotic behavior was going to become a permanent part of her behavioral repertoire. The only challenge that remains is to keep her calm for the remaining 1.5 weeks of her recovery. My sister is really frustrated with her inability to keep her from jumping on the couch.
 
I'm glad she's feeling better. The anesthesia may have effected her unusually.
 
A buddy of mine came over to watch the Westminster Dog Show with us. (We always make dinner and sit and watch the dog show together.) Anyhow, way back in the day, she used to be a vet tech and she felt Fiona's response was due to the anesthetic used which is what the vet told me. She asked if they used ketamine. Turns out that if your dog is sensitive to it, there can be a whole host of adverse side effects

Source Ketamine for Dogs
Adverse Effects of ketamine for dogs may include the following:
  • Elevated heart rate
  • High blood pressure
  • Respiratory problems
  • Muscle tremors
  • Random or spastic bodily movements
  • Erratic recovery
  • Vocalization
  • Seizures (very rare)
Fiona had all of these except the seizures and the effects 36 hours and then slowly decreased and more or less disappeared by Sunday evening (the surgery happened midday on Friday). The heart rate and the huffing (like she was short of breath) was the reason we went back to the vet. I thought something went wrong with the surgery and that it was a symptom of extreme pain. I could feel her little heart beating on my leg through a thick heavy blanket when I had her on my lap. The vet looked her over and listened to her heart and said that the only thing that could go wrong with this situation was to allow her to get at her stitches or let her damage herself internally by not keeping her quiet. Yeah, in retrospect, it kind of rankled me that the vet suggested that her breed had anything to do with her response. From my perspective I took my super intelligent, super active and very precocious little dog in for surgery and she was acting very strangely with symptoms that were terrifying.
 
Mel Blacke said:
A buddy of mine came over to watch the Westminster Dog Show with us. (We always make dinner and sit and watch the dog show together.) Anyhow, way back in the day, she used to be a vet tech and she felt Fiona's response was due to the anesthetic used which is what the vet told me. She asked if they used ketamine. Turns out that if your dog is sensitive to it, there can be a whole host of adverse side effects

Source Ketamine for Dogs
Adverse Effects of ketamine for dogs may include the following:
  • Elevated heart rate
  • High blood pressure
  • Respiratory problems
  • Muscle tremors
  • Random or spastic bodily movements
  • Erratic recovery
  • Vocalization
  • Seizures (very rare)
Fiona had all of these except the seizures and the effects 36 hours and then slowly decreased and more or less disappeared by Sunday evening (the surgery happened midday on Friday). The heart rate and the huffing (like she was short of breath) was the reason we went back to the vet. I thought something went wrong with the surgery and that it was a symptom of extreme pain. I could feel her little heart beating on my leg through a thick heavy blanket when I had her on my lap. The vet looked her over and listened to her heart and said that the only thing that could go wrong with this situation was to allow her to get at her stitches or let her damage herself internally by not keeping her quiet. Yeah, in retrospect, it kind of rankled me that the vet suggested that her breed had anything to do with her response. From my perspective I took my super intelligent, super active and very precocious little dog in for surgery and she was acting very strangely with symptoms that were terrifying.
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Ketamine is one of safest to use because the patient can maintain thier own respirations. But it far from being pleasant. They use this on people with weak hearts when anesthesia is very risky. Ketamine is simalar to the street drug PCP and produces an out-of-body experience.

EDIT: I was wrong about being used in cardiac disease. You could use it with low blood pressure problems.
 
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manuel said:
Ketamine is one of safest to use because the patient can maintain thier own respirations. But it far from being pleasant. They use this on people with weak hearts when anesthesia is very risky. Ketamine is simalar to the street drug PCP and produces an out-of-body experience.
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That explains a lot.
 
What does this mean if she has to have ketamine in the future--? She appears to be fine and is very much back to her old self, however. She is making me nuts trying to get me to train and play with her and we still have one more week to go with the activity restrictions.
 
Etomidate would be the next safest drug but I'm pretty sure it stops breathing. If she's having surgery in the future, get a referral to an emergency vet hospital (trusted). They have more experience with anesthetics, airway management and critical care drugs. That would be your insurance nothing goes wrong. Of course you'll pay considerably more.

EDIT: It depresses breathing but shouldn't stop it so should be a good alternative to ketamine.
 
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Fiona's breeder mentioned.....propofol, I think. I don't think the vet could have reasonably anticipated this reaction but I am making a list of questions about this because I need to know what to do in the case that she needs surgery in the future. I believe that it would be to Fiona's benefit to be proactive about this. Thank you manuel for your suggestion about the emergency vet hospital. I am not above making an appointment with them and asking my questions there, too.
 
Propofol definitely stops breathing and works instantly. The reason I mention ketamine and the like being safe...they're made for practitioners who lack experience. Once you give the anesthetic, you have seconds to insert a breathing tube or risk brain damage. Drugs like ketamine let the patient breath on their own in case you mess up. A good emergency vet hospital handles lots of patients and has experience using anesthetics. You need a referral though.
 
Yeah my buddy said that you didn't have to intubate (not sure about the spelling here) with ketamine which is why it is popular--it is simpler to use and carries less risk because of this. So I will learn all about dog anesthetics and go over it in my head until I am familiar with the terms and then make the question list and then start asking....maybe take notes.
 
I never allow Ketamine, there have been problems in the past. Also it should not be used in dogs with seizures. We always use isoflurane and propofal. (Not sure if spelled right) there is also a newer gas but don't remember the name. Another thing to help reduce anesthesia problems is IV fluids, they flush the anesthesia faster. I would research the side effects of all the anesthesia available then you can ask questions and make choices. One thing I always keep in mind is the safest anesthesia is the one the vet is familiar with. If the vet uses one Im Not comfortable with I go somewhere else. That is why I drive 5 hours to see the vet Sorry I t was such a bad experience, hopefully by now she is through with it and doing well. We got an infant jump suit or sleeper and put it on the dog so the sutures were covered after a few days, you can wrap a belly band around the area over the Jammie's for the xtra protection. Mine did not do well with cones either.
 
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