As important as a solid recall.....

Mel Blacke

Mel Blacke

Well-Known Member
A friend of mine who has forgotten more about dog training than I will probably ever learn was talking about the recall being a necessity and said the command to drop out of motion being just as important. Being as how we have done some limited work on dropping out of motion on lead and during formal recalls to front it got me to thinking. A flushing and retrieving breed must also drop out of motion, even under the stress of having flushed the game when all of a dog's instincts scream to continue the pursuit. It takes a lot of impulse control--easily as much self control as when your dog is sniffing at the park and you see a car or another dog and call them to you for safety.
I have just read the coolest thing that gave me an idea. We have been working towards dropping out of motion in a controlled environment only. My goal is to move this to out-of-doors when warm weather gets here. It is a daunting task as being still is not my dog's strong suit. We have messed around with the command outside with calling her to front from only about 20 feet away. The flirt pole is an extreme motivator for the dog and while I use that pole to promote impulse control in stationary positions why couldn't I use it to promote and reinforce a moving down---it will allow me to test whether she can do it while her prey drive is engaged. The trick of laying down and staying still no matter what is a tall order but has all sorts of uses, most importantly her safety. ​

Anyway, so my question to the forum members is this---can you call your dog away from a good sniff or sighting game if they are off lead? Have you ever considered working on, for lack of a better word---a "moving down" (which is what the obedience people call it, I think). Hunting dogs have to do this even while moving away from you and at least one exercise in advanced Schutzhund involves sending your dog far away and asking them to turn and face you on command so I know it is possible. ​
 
I'm not familiar with these commands but Hoshi would most likely fail. I need to work on "come" and "leave it." By the way, you're mentioning very practical commands to ensure a dog's safety. I've seen videos where neither dog nor hunter appear trained. The dogs aren't dropping back and hunters take shots anyways. They shouldn't be allowed to hunt period.
 
I have been working on this w/Callie. She thinks it's great fun to chase my chickens. I DON'T want her to chase them. Today, I took a handful of air popped popcorn w/me. She started to leave them alone and come when I called her.
 
Great job Dizzy--I am impressed! If your dog spends time off-lead it can save the dog's life. From some of the stuff you wrote, it sounds like you want a dog who can adapt to different environments and may spend significant time off-lead so this skill is essential. You are also wise to start this when she is young. As Callie grows through different stages, she will start to become little more independent and develop a mind of her own. If you have this behavior installed to the point of an automatic response, then the dog will be conditioned to respond almost automatically. A lecture that I watched that was given by a world famous, and highly respected dog trainer explained it this way: Dogs are very poor at generalizing behavior---that is to say that they are not good at grasping concepts. So stay in the house is not the same thing as stay in the park. Recall is not the same at the farm as it would be off leash in another environment. It takes them a long time to get a the concept that "come" means go to mommy-- no matter what I feel like doing or where we are at. I have found this to be very true with my Fiona. Recall is something we still work on constantly--I make "deposits" or investments in that recall behavior against the time when I might need it to keep her safe. She wants to see things and do stuff BUT mommy has chicken, liver and toys. My dog comes to me because she might miss out on something really good if she doesn't.
 
manuel said:
I'm not familiar with these commands but Hoshi would most likely fail.
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I have watched by now hours of footage of English cockers and sometimes other dogs hunting and I agree with you---some are more into hunting than dog training and it shows--you have a point: If you cannot control your dog, why should you be trusted with a firearm?. Oh, Manuel, there are things that Fiona should know but fails at, too---lest you think otherwise: Her loose leash walking absolutely sucks! She is terrible at it!! My girlfriend the dog trainer just shakes her head disapprovingly when she sees Fiona on lead but not doing a heeling pattern. She also thinks I bribe my dog by using an almost all-reward system of training with few, if any corrections. She doesn't exactly drag me but there is often no slack in the leash, either. She is also allowed to get away with murder when we have company---my sister often has people over throughout the day and isn't really focused on Fiona and what she is or isn't doing. Fiona is an absolute monster because she her bad behavior is rewarded with attention from the well-meaning visitors---she behaves exactly like a spoiled child. (However, when I am present, her behavior is much more subdued). This could be corrected by asking the people to simply ignore the dog until she is calm---instead of reinforcing her obnoxious behavior by paying attention to her. Sigh! I remind myself that you have to pick your battles.
 
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Mel Blacke said:
Oh, Manuel, there are things that Fiona should know but fails at, too---lest you think otherwise: Her loose leash walking absolutely sucks! She is terrible at it!! My girlfriend the dog trainer just shakes her head disapprovingly when she sees Fiona on lead but not doing a heeling pattern. She also thinks I bribe my dog by using an almost all-reward system of training with few, if any corrections. She doesn't exactly drag me but there is often no slack in the leash, either. She is also allowed to get away with murder when we have company---my sister often has people over throughout the day and isn't really focused on Fiona and what she is or isn't doing. Fiona is an absolute monster because she her bad behavior is rewarded with attention from the well-meaning visitors---she behaves exactly like a spoiled child. (However, when I am present, her behavior is much more subdued). This could be corrected by asking the people to simply ignore the dog until she is calm---instead of reinforcing her obnoxious behavior by paying attention to her. Sigh! I remind myself that you have to pick your battles.
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There's always room for improvement and training goes on 24/7. You can't blame visitors for lavishing Fiona with attention. I would be dying to pet her too. Hoshi's almost 10 but I'm might take him for a refresher class this spring.
 
Mel, I have that same problem w/Callie. I am trying to train her not to jump on people, or lunge forward to see them. But, she's so cute that most people just don't care. I'll even ask them to not pet her unless she's calm, but most people ignore this request. She is getting better. She doesn't get to see a bunch of different people normally. So, I'm trying to take her to TSC when I can since they allow dogs. She is getting better, but still has a ways to go.

I'm also working on having her not pull me all over on the leash. W/my wrist, I can't have her do that. I realize she's only 6 months old, but this is the time to build the foundation.
 
Oooh, I have a solution for that.....ask them (as they are approaching) if they will give her a treat....which you immediately fish out of your pocket and say to them as you hand it over, "she has to sit for a treat." That usually works. Another tactic that I employ is to go up to the disabled person and hang out in the same area. If they look kindly at the dog, ask them to feed her a treat....that way the dog gets used to different things about people. Extremely tall people, children on bicycles, somebody with a leaf blower, somebody on crutches, a mommy pushing a baby stroller. Someone on a store motorized wheelchair, men wearing hats, etc.....any thing that the dog might see as extraordinary. Fiona notices everything and being so high strung had a real tendency to bark at strange things--it effectively ended this behavior.
 
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I've tried that, it still doesn't work. They want to give it to her right away. And so far, Callie hasn't seen anything in a store that upsets her.
 
She sounds like she has a great disposition! It is important to note that Fiona did not exhibit this "I am not sure about you," bark until shortly before the age of two and I took her lots and lots of places for exposure as she grew up. I am not really sure why (I just don't have that kind of training experience) and it doesn't necessarily follow that Callie will be the same at all--dogs are very individual just like people, I think.
 
Dylan was pretty much bullet proof. Nothing upset him. I taught him to be that way but it was pretty much accidental. When we got him my kids were running road races and cross country. He was a small pup and couldn’t be left long so we took him with. There were starting guns, air horns, and even a cannon. People yelled, screamed, cheered, and shook cow bells. Everyone ran all over the place, not only the participants but the spectators so they could watch the runners on different parts of the course. There were golf carts, scooters, bikes, and all sorts of lead vehicles. He was petted by hundreds of people and Dylan loved all of it.

After a cross country season nothing much shook him. There was one exception. Once we were on a walk and there was a man behind us. Dylan growled. Dylan never growled so I took his advice, crossed the street, and changed direction. I’m glad I did.
 
I am glad you followed Dylan's advice--sometimes dogs pick up on things about body language that we do not.
 
I've heard of dogs doing that sort of thing. And, unless it was someone I knew well, I'd never ignore it either. I had the farrier out today, and Callie was actually barking and growling at him. First she's done that.
 
Good farriers are hard to find. I've used him for many years, and have never had a problem w/him. Once he got in the field, she was fine.
 
I have a bit of a cute story about this.........but no advice for training. ;)
When my Dad got his hunting lab (I think she is around 10 now, she would have been about a year at the time of the story).
Katie came with a lot of foundation training already for hunting. Perfect for my dad who needed a partner, but lacks the discipline himself to train from scratch. To Katie a whistle command is law, voice command is a request.

Not too long after they got her I was visiting my parents who live on a farm. My dad had gone somewhere and my mom and I were home but planning on heading out. So we wanted to make sure Katie was locked up as she was new enough she could still wander. Mom and I called her for a minute or so, but with neither of us being my Dad I guess she didn't feel it was important enough to come right away. My Mom found the whistle my Dad used when he was hunting and tried that. Nothing. Called and whistled. Called and whistled. Nothing. After several hours of looking, walking, calling and whistling, my Dad came home and started to look with us. Nothing. No Katie anywhere.

It was now almost dark and there were the horses to feed, we had to give up looking for awhile.
So we called the horses in for their supper. One of them was on the other side of a pond and as he came around, did the crazy bronco sideways buck, spook, hop run that horses have mastered. After getting the horses settled we walked back down to the pond with flashlights to see what might have startled the horse, still calling for Katie.

That poor girl to have such dumb humans in charge!
Katie was laying in the tall grass at the edge of the pond waiting for someone to give her the correct whistle to come!
(somehow it never occurred to any of us to have my Dad whistle for her when he got home).
After that adventure, my Dad made my Mom a whistle cheat sheet to call the dogs.
 
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