Lulu has a lot of issues that I'm not sure how to handle

navyflygirl

navyflygirl

Well-Known Member
Owned by
1 cocker
Hello, everyone!

I will go ahead and apologize now, as this will probably be pretty long. I stumbled across a Husky forum not long after we got our Ghost and it has been my sanity with her. So much so, that I sought out a forum for Cocker Spaniels so that maybe I can get some help with Lulu's issues. As I said in my introduction, I have zero experience being the primary caretaker of dogs, as my career has never permitted me the time to properly care for and socialize a dog. So, this summer I found myself engaged and transferring to a non deploying billet, and suddenly I have 2 wonderful dogs, whom I love dearly even though sometimes I think they're going to drive me insane. Here's to hair dye to cover those grays, right? :p

Anyway, Lulu did not get a very good start in life, and I desperately want to help her with her behavioral issues, but what works with Ghost doesn't always work with Lulu and vice versa. My fiance adopted Lulu from his then girlfriend's family when she was 7 months old, she's now 4.5. The original owners got her from a BYB in their neighborhood, with no paperwork and no information on health problems in the family. So far we've been exceptionally lucky, and the only health issue she has is Lip Fold Pyoderma, which we are treating. I just pray that she doesn't have to deal with the massive health problems that my childhood Cocker, Lady had (I suspect my parents got her from a BYB as well, way back in the early 80's). As lucky as we have been health wise, she has some pretty bad behavioral issues. Aaron, my fiance, suspects that the girlfriend's family mistreated her at least some, and he knows for a fact that she spent the majority of the time in a crate just howling for attention from the owners. They pretty much just yelled at her for it, and never once tried to socialize her with other dogs or people. They gave her up when their 15 year old daughter (girlfriend's younger sister) got pregnant, and Aaron rescued her so she wouldn't be dumped into a shelter or even worse home. After he and the girlfriend broke up, Aaron and Lulu lived a little isolated in a little apartment until I showed up.

Aaron knew from the start that Lulu had issues with other dogs, so instead of working with her, he never took her to a park or put her in a training class, just kept her in the apartment with an occasional walk. She is wonderful with the cats, but freaks out any time a dog she doesn't know gets too close, and charges the dog snapping, snarling, and barking. She is also very short tempered with Ghost, and Aaron had to physically restrain her last week from attacking Ghost over an apple core that they got ahold of (yes, we know the seeds were bad and were trying to get it away from them). Ghost is very playful and has loads of energy, and when she tries to play with Lulu, Lulu will not have any of it and snaps at her. When this happens, we try to redirect Ghost to play with us so Lulu can have her personal space and calm down. Aaron never realized that this was a problem, but we have discovered that she fiercely resource guards. Aaron and I have no problem with trying to take her food dish away, but we don't know how she would react if someone else (ie a child) tried to do the same. If another dog approaches while she's eating, it's game over, even though she thinks nothing of going up and shoving another dog away from its dish to eat its food (we had to put her on a diet, Aaron let her get a little fat so that probably isn't helping). The bigger problem is with toys. She will growl at Aaron if he tries to take a toy, even while playing fetch, and she has tried to bite me several times when I tried to take the frisbee to throw for her again. She just adores fetching balls and frisbees (she's a great little frisbee catcher), she just doesn't want to give it up to be thrown again. She actually covers the toy and growls, and if we get too close she snaps. We've been taking her to parks with Ghost to help her socialize a little, but a dog got too close not too long ago while she had a ball, and she did her "lets run off the dog" routine and the dog turned and attacked. I felt bad for her because she got hurt, and I really want to help her learn how to get along better so that doesn't happen again. It's also really not fair to her to leave her behind when we take Ghost out, because Ghost really needs the interaction and exercise. The last major problem that we are dealing with is that she is a submissive piddler, her other issues are more annoying than dangerous. It's not excitement, it's very much a submissive thing. You have to pet her on her terms, you can't just reach out and pet her at will. Also, regardless of her desire, you have to be down on her level instead of hovering over her. Even when we follow her cues, she will still pee sometimes, and in the last week has nailed a brand new couch (was Aaron's fault, he ignored the signals) and our bed. Is there anything that can be done with that? We don't punish her at all for it, but we both thought that by 4.5 she'd have grown out of it. We've had her checked by vets a few times now, and there are no underlying health problems.

My biggest concerns for her are that we don't want her to get hurt, and we don't want someone else to wind up getting bitten. Aaron and I want to have children, but we need to work out her guarding issues before we can comfortably bring a child into the house. I watched her pin a friend's 4 year old against a wall once trying to take food (she got punished for that one), and I don't want to put her in a situation that would compromise her or another person. We also desperately don't want to rehome her, because we firmly believe that she can be helped. So far, none of our methods have really worked with her. We have been trying desensitization as well as water bottles, and while that stops the behavior short term, we haven't seen any long term improvement. I finally convinced Aaron to put her in formal training, as our trainer for Ghost is wonderful, and she tested into the intermediate class. I'm recuperating right now from major ankle surgery, so as soon as I am able we are going to start class with her. We've been told that Ghost has a lot of potential to be a therapy dog, and as sweet as Lulu can be, I'd love to get her into that program as well. She's been so sweet with me since I had surgery, and I've had a constant rotation of Ghost, Lulu, and Gremlin (kitty) curled up with me on the couch :) Both dogs have actually been amazingly respectful of the crutches, I was a little worried about both, but they have been awesome.

If you've read this far, I really appreciate it. This did sort of turn out to be a novel, but I really didn't want to leave any of the big stuff out. Any advice at all would be appreciated, and I look forward to getting to know you guys! Thanks again.

Meredith
 
Those paragraphs were challenging. :)

It sounds like you're doing everything right (i.e. redirecting, socializing). I think you just have to give her more time. How long have you had her? I would keep up with the crating until you get her accidents under control. Let her know crating can be a positive experience. Personally, I would avoid the dog park. There's too many opportunities for something to go wrong. Walking her leashed in your neighborhood would be better. Whenever I come across a group of people or someone walking another dog I just walk to the other side of the street.
 
Thanks Manuel. Aaron has had her for almost 4 years, and we've been living together since June. Before we moved in together, I had never really seen her interacting outside his apartment, so I didn't know the extent of the issues. I'd just been warned about the peeing thing. She has been crate trained her whole life, and for the most part she does not have random accidents as she is bell trained. She will occasionally forget to ring the bell and have an accident, but I've only seen that happen 3-4 times since I've known her. I also strongly suspect the one last week was her telling us how angry she was for taking her to the groomer. She really doesn't like the groomer, but we haven't had time to do it ourselves lately and she was getting mats in the fur. Most of her accidents are induced by someone trying to pet or otherwise touch her when she's giving the "I don't want to be touched" signal. I could have throttled Aaron a couple weeks ago, he picked her up when she clearly didn't want to be and she peed all over an easy chair, across the floor, and the couch he wanted her to sit on. Would have made for a super cute picture, but he shouldn't have pushed the issue. I'll pitch the dog park thing to him, but she knows the words and gets super excited to go, and he especially feels really bad for leaving her behind. I just don't want her to get hurt or go a little to far and hurt another dog. I like Petsmart for her, because it's a more controlled socialization option. We'll see how training goes when I'm able to start it. Thanks again for reading the novel I wrote... :p
 
I'm thinking that you're the one that instituted some of the training at home rather than your boyfriend? All this measures should really start paying off over time.
 
Yes. He is a great guy, but has never really had to push himself or been in situations like you and I have with the military, so his approach to a lot of things is if it's too hard he doesn't bother. He taught a few basic commands such as sit, down, and stay, but he never worked on any type of socialization because he saw it as being impossible. I've seen a lot of dogs turn around, and I know she's got potential. She doesn't ever want to play with another dog, which is hard because our puppy is very playful and well socialized. Ghost wants to play, Lulu goes on the offensive. He also never tried to train problem behaviors out of her, like her habit of going insane when she hears a sound that sounds like a knock or doorbell. She has a bad problem of running out the door when we have visitors, which with my limited mobility is dangerous for both of us. She has excellent recall off leash, but Ghost does not, and I don't want either of them escaping. He's also never discouraged begging, but finally realized it could be a problem after she tried to steal from the 4 year old.

It's frustrating working through these, and I know it really isn't her fault. It's a combination of a very bad start and then some owner apathy. They sort of holed up together in his little apartment until I arrived on the scene :p
 
That was a ton of info, ha, so forgive me if I miss something. I'm going to give some advice in a list form.

1. I would work on building a good relationship and training foundation with her. Google something like "positive reinforcement clicker training". If you can get her clicker trained (or do something similar), that will help a ton when working on the behavioral problems. For example, you could then click and praise when she shows calm behavior in situations that she normally reacts (ex: meeting another dog). Also look up NILIF (Nothing in life is free) training, it can be useful for possessive dogs.

2. No water bottles, yelling, etc. A lot of her behaviors are related to fear, submission, etc. so you want to boost her confidence. For example, instead of spraying her when she begs (not saying you do this! I just don't know when you use the water bottle), you can click and treat when she lies calmly, maybe on a special mat. Again, just a general example. Cockers react very poorly to "punishment", even something as simple as being yelled at. They're sensitive dogs.

3. The submissive peeing may never go away completely but it will be improved with confidence-building exercises (I'll see if I can find you a good book on that later...I know there are some out there). When you guys come home, ignore her until she's calmed down. And like you were saying you do, watch for her "signs". Out of curiosity, has she gotten a vet check to rule out medical problems like a weak bladder? Female Cockers, especially if spayed, are prone to urination issues, UTIs, etc.

4. Make sure your trainer is using positive reinforcement and no harsh corrections. Again, we want to boost her confidence. Corrections can also make a reactive dog a hundred times worse. Think about it this way...she barks out of nervousness when encountering another dog. If the trainer tells you to correct her (saying "no", giving a pinch, tightening the collar, etc.), she now associates meeting a new dog with something negative...making her MUCH worse. Instead, reward good behavior and slowly work up to actually meeting other dogs. This may mean keeping your distance from things that set her off for a while. Keep her below threshold (so where she feels OK enough to not react) and decrease the distance as you continue your training.

5. No dog parks. They're very bad for training reactive dogs (start googling "reactive dog", by the way, as that's what you're dealing with) as you can't control the other dogs there and you never know what may happen. You also could potentially overwhelm her. If you were afraid of snakes and someone dumped you in a room with thousands of large, unpredictable snakes I'm confident it wouldn't help you get over your fear. Desensitization is one thing, flooding is another.

6. If she's snapping when guarding toys, don't leave toys out for her to have whenever she wants. You control when she gets toys. This relates back to NILIF training.

7. You listed a lot of issues so maybe pick a few to work on at a time. I'd be focusing on boosting her confidence, building a solid training foundation, and starting reactivity training. I can help with this if you have questions, I have worked with several reactive dogs, including my own (Sophie used to react horribly to strange dogs).

8. Increase the amount of exercise she gets, both physically and mentally. Tiring her out will make her less anxious and prone to reacting :). When I say "mental" exercise I mean games that make her use her brain...puzzle toys, finding hidden treats, learning tricks, etc. I can elaborate more if needed.
 
Stephanie,
Thank you very much for all the great information! I'm a big fan of NILIF... I learned about it when we first got Ghost, because without intensive training Huskies can be completely unmanageable. We didn't do it as much with Lulu, but the more research I've done, the more I've been pushing to increase it. I finally have time to just sit and read stuff now. I guess silver lining to this whole ankle thing? A member on our Husky forum brought up the taking toys away thing too, and Aaron has been fighting me on that some, but as I'm regaining some of my independence around the house I will be pushing that harder. The dog park thing is going to be a fight too...he insists on bringing her even though she starts something EVERY TIME. She gets possessive of Aaron and whatever toy might be in sight, then runs off any dog who comes remotely close, even if they aren't interested in what she's guarding. He keeps telling me it's not fair to leave her behind. Is it fair to put her in a situation in which she's likely to be the aggressor in a fight that gets her hurt? The dog that did hurt her was her size, just a little stronger. Aaron blamed the other dog too, which I called BS immediately because I watched it happen. The dog got too close, Lulu charged, and the dog said nope and pinned her to the ground. I've also seen her run off a full grown Mastiff, which could have been disastrous. Yet he keeps insisting we bring her. I think I'm training a dog and a soon to be husband here...

I will definitely look into clicker training, and I'm always reading so books are great. I get the no punish, and you can see it plain as day when you do scold her. Aaron is firmly convinced that she responds best to yelling (he even swats her muzzle when she snaps at us), but when I was telling her "no" today as she was trying to shove my laptop off my lap so she could occupy it, she was shaking. How do you correct that one? The laptop actually did hit the floor at one point, and she pushed one of my cats off my lap too. She sits and scratches your arm, and the more attention you give her the more insistent she gets. I don't want her to get the idea that every time she shoves into my lap or shoves her face in mine she gets a treat with the positive reinforcement. You also can't push her (I do it gently) or you risk a puddle on expensive furniture.

She's actually got a bunch more issues that I haven't really touched on, it was just that much that I feel needs to be one immediately so that she doesn't get hurt or in trouble.
 
I would try working with a trainer. My DD adopted Eloise, a female buff cocker, from a shelter. She has some similar dog issues. Lauren took Eloise to obedience classes, after alerting the trainers to Eloise's problems, and she also worked privately with a trainer. Eloise always got along with Dylan but she and Riley had some issues. We learned not to leave toys laying around and to bring them out at specific times. Eloise will never be "dog friendly" but has calmed down considerably when walking and she actually has some dog friends. She likes a little boston and she and my son's dog, Knute are really good friends. I don't think the problems are totally gone but they are much more manageable.
 
Thanks! I had been talking with Ghost's trainer for a while, and I finally convinced Aaron to enroll her. We did an assessment, and since she's really obedient if she knows there is a treat (not so much if there isn't) she would have tested into the advanced class if it weren't for the socialization issues. As soon as I am mobile again without crutches, we're going to start Lulu in the intermediate class. Our trainer is wonderful, and has seen some videos of Lulu that I have taken.
 
That's great news! Hopefully, with the trainer aware they will be able to teach you some techniques to help Lulu.
 
navyflygirl said:
Stephanie,
Thank you very much for all the great information! I'm a big fan of NILIF... I learned about it when we first got Ghost, because without intensive training Huskies can be completely unmanageable. We didn't do it as much with Lulu, but the more research I've done, the more I've been pushing to increase it. I finally have time to just sit and read stuff now. I guess silver lining to this whole ankle thing? A member on our Husky forum brought up the taking toys away thing too, and Aaron has been fighting me on that some, but as I'm regaining some of my independence around the house I will be pushing that harder. The dog park thing is going to be a fight too...he insists on bringing her even though she starts something EVERY TIME. She gets possessive of Aaron and whatever toy might be in sight, then runs off any dog who comes remotely close, even if they aren't interested in what she's guarding. He keeps telling me it's not fair to leave her behind. Is it fair to put her in a situation in which she's likely to be the aggressor in a fight that gets her hurt? The dog that did hurt her was her size, just a little stronger. Aaron blamed the other dog too, which I called BS immediately because I watched it happen. The dog got too close, Lulu charged, and the dog said nope and pinned her to the ground. I've also seen her run off a full grown Mastiff, which could have been disastrous. Yet he keeps insisting we bring her. I think I'm training a dog and a soon to be husband here...
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The thing is, every time she reacts (which sounds like every dog park trip), the behavior becomes more ingrained. The idea behind most reactivity training is to build lots and lots of positive memories of meeting strange dogs...meetings where the dog is calm, gets praise, and there's no barking or snapping. Over time, the reactive dog starts to relax a bit. Will she ever be a dog park candidate? Probably not (honestly, a lot of dogs aren't). But you should be able to get her to a point where she can meet other dogs on walks and trips without her totally flipping out. Sophie, my reactive dog, is at the point now where we see a strange dog and she looks up at me like "Hey, there's a strange dog over there. Is it OK?" and I can reassure her with some praise and continue walking.

But as she continues to go to the dog park, she's going to become more and more reactive. It's not fair to her OR the other dogs there.

navyflygirl said:
I will definitely look into clicker training, and I'm always reading so books are great. I get the no punish, and you can see it plain as day when you do scold her. Aaron is firmly convinced that she responds best to yelling (he even swats her muzzle when she snaps at us), but when I was telling her "no" today as she was trying to shove my laptop off my lap so she could occupy it, she was shaking. How do you correct that one? The laptop actually did hit the floor at one point, and she pushed one of my cats off my lap too. She sits and scratches your arm, and the more attention you give her the more insistent she gets. I don't want her to get the idea that every time she shoves into my lap or shoves her face in mine she gets a treat with the positive reinforcement. You also can't push her (I do it gently) or you risk a puddle on expensive furniture.
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I'll try to dig up some books for you once things settle down here :). Yeah, the yelling/swatting is going to make things worse. She's not going to trust you guys as much and will also feel that her warnings (growling, snapping near your hand, etc. are all warnings and attempts at NOT biting) are being ignored/challenged...leading to actual bites.

The lap issue could be approached a few different ways. One way would be to only allow her on the couch by invitation. Admittedly, though, I wouldn't personally do that as it's complicated with our constantly changing foster dogs. Instead, I'd ignore her completely when she scratches/whines/pushes. I know that's difficult and you might need to wear heavy clothing so she can't scratch you. The moment she stops and settles down a bit, praise her and give her the attention she wants. Basically, I'd be doing practice sessions where you're not actually doing anything, just having the laptop there so you can work on the behavior. It'll take a lot of repetitions (that will be ruined by Aaron going back to swatting so share this with him) but she'll learn that acting calmly is the only way to get lap time. As time goes on, stop letting her up every single time she's calm...make the "reward" (lap time) more random. Eventually it should get to the point where you can sit in peace and invite her up when you're ready, provided she's behaving :). She sounds like a smart dog, I think she'll catch on :). And ignoring, instead of shoving, will avoid accidents on the couch.
 
I'm working on the ignoring thing. After having a chance to really observe her especially today without any interference, I can say she is absolutely terrified. I have no idea how long she's felt this way towards us and especially Aaron, but she was definitely shaking at the sound of my voice, even though I was speaking as soothingly as possible. I feel bad, and admittedly I haven't always been the nicest step mommy, mostly out of frustration at the situation. It's a little sad that she's likely never going to be a dog park dog, because Ghost just loves the park and is friends with all the dogs out there. I don't want to take that away from her, but I don't like having to leave Lulu at home either, especially when she knows exactly what the park is. The last couple times though it's either been Aaron and her off by themselves, or she's been so bad we've had to find a bench and keep her on a lap to keep from instigating something.

I honestly think that while she has been generally good around my crutches, she's afraid of them. I think part of it is the crutches themselves, and part of it is that when she does get underfoot it's really bad (and very dangerous for both of us) and I do need to be kind of firm to get her to move so I don't fall. I know it's compounding the problem, but that's the only way to keep her back sometimes if she's really excited about something. Hopefully that only lasts a couple more weeks.

It's been such a relief chatting with you all today. Sometimes it feels like I'm beating my head against a wall... With all 3 of the crazy animals (Aaron included)...
 
navyflygirl said:
It's a little sad that she's likely never going to be a dog park dog, because Ghost just loves the park and is friends with all the dogs out there.
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Never say never. :) She might turn out to love the park after you're done with her. Hopefully, it will get easier once you and Aaron are on the same page. Great advice everyone.
 
Sounds like you have your work cut out for you and you are doing some good things. I would try to find a trainer if possible that has experience with aggression, the other issues take time and patience but it sounds like you are on the right track. The aggression has apparently gone on for a while so that is a bigger issue. Good luck
 
manuel said:
Never say never. :) She might turn out to love the park after you're done with her. Hopefully, it will get easier once you and Aaron are on the same page. Great advice everyone.
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True... I want her to be good at the park, because she REALLY likes going. I tossed out the whole not taking her for a while thing, and pretty much if Lulu doesn't go to the park, neither does Ghost... Even though one of our last trips resulted in a slight liver injury because she charged the wrong dog...

She's curled up sound asleep half on me and half on the couch right now. She allowed me *just* enough room for the laptop :p And, we were able to get her back to the groomers to finish what they couldn't on Friday (she got too upset and peed EVERYWHERE when they went to do her face), and she looks great. We had to get her a t-shirt and a sweater though, because even though it's not exactly cold here, she's shivering with her new haircut. It's going to cool down a lot here tomorrow night, too.

I really appreciate the advice from everyone. She's really not a bad dog, she's just been allowed to get away with a lot of crap for a long time.
 
navyflygirl said:
She's really not a bad dog, she's just been allowed to get away with a lot of crap for a long time.
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You hit the nail right on the head. It's taken her 4 1/2 years to get this way so be patient and consistent yet gentle. You'll see results.
 
First of all, I definitely recommend NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free). There are tons of websites can you pull up on Google, but I also highly recommend a book called "Ruff Love" by Susan Garrett. People always think that NILIF is mean, or punishing, to the dog, but it's not. It provides their world with some structure, and dogs that have issues benefit hugely from structure. I also recommend a book called "Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell PhD (http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/ or http://www.dogwise.com in e-book or PDF format). I actually recommend ANY book by Dr. McConnell - she's incredibly knowledgeable while being down to earth as well. Also, check out http://www.fearfuldogs.com for a wonderful website that has tons of resources for working with fearful dogs.

When a dog is afraid or insecure, the worst thing to do is to make them "face their fears." Think about it - I'm terrified of spiders (which is irrational, but it's still true). If you stuck me in a room and filled it with spiders, I wouldn't just get over my fear. I might wet my pants, go into shock or scream until I passed out. I hope I never find out what my reaction would be. It's far better to work on turning those fears into good feelings, using de-sensitization and counter-conditioning.

I agree with the advice to stop the trips to the dog park for Lulu. You can take Ghost and leave Lulu at home. I know it feels unfair, but really, it's better for Lulu to be at home, not getting stressed out.

I'm glad you found us and asked for advice. None of us know everything, but collectively we know a fair amount, and we can all point you to even better resources too. Plus we're a pretty supportive group. We're just a bunch of animal lovers that enjoy sharing stories about our lives. Usually the stories are about our pets, but not always. Welcome to our home on the Web!
 
Thanks so much, Kelly. We have stepped up the NILIF with Lulu as it worked wonders for Ghost. I will definitely check out those links as well, I'm always up for some good reading material. Good analogy on the spiders, too... Aaron says "she responds to yelling" so that's all he does. Well, she's also scared out of her mind of us. He also delivered the ultimatum that if Lulu doesn't go to the dog park then Ghost doesn't either, and thinks it's "good socialization" for her (frustrated).

She's been doing better the last couple days, too. She hasn't been barking her head off at every knock or doorbell on TV, and Aaron even vacuumed today without a single bark out of her. She's still been nasty if Ghost gets too close or too excited, and I really hope we can get some improvement on that. Baby steps though...

Robin, I used to live in Enid. I was at Vance for 6 months in '07, then at Tinker for 4 years. I miss Oklahoma.
 
So, ever since Aaron started trying to teach "speak" and then we stepped up NILIF, Lulu has seemingly forgotten how to "Lie down". We haven't changed anything else, if anything we're nicer to her even with her usual antics, and she just refuses to do anything to earn her breakfast. We could run her through a full gamut of tricks until about a week ago, and as soon as Aaron really started stepping up "speak", she just quit laying down on command. Ever. No amount of bribery and treats will get her to do it. I completely do not get it. I finally gave up after 20 minutes of telling her to lie down and her looking at me like I was an idiot. All she does is whine for her food. She did all this stuff just fine, and then up and quit one day.

I may also strangle me a Husky. She has decided that she doesn't come back inside when she's called anymore. We have stray cats that neighbors feed, and they like to come into our yard and crap. Then Ghost eats the crap, and will not come in unless we have a leash on her and can drag her in. Works great when Aaron is here, but he left for his grandfather's funeral last night. I'm still on crutches and can't handle 40 lbs of bouncing puppy on a leash, so I just stand outside like an idiot for like half an hour EVERY SINGLE TIME SHE GOES OUT calling her until my voice goes out. Sorry, I'm a bit frustrated this morning, between the 2 of them I have just completely wasted an hour.
 
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