My 11 year old cocker has a liver shunt..

mommadog1

mommadog1

New Member
Owned by
2 cockers
Hanna was diagnosed with this yesterday with a liver shunt. She is having neurological issues from it as well.

She cannot drink water without my assistance, I have to gently push her mouth into the water. I hold her body steady as I hold her head down. The water seems like it almost surprises her. Like she isn't sure what it is. She will drink however when I do this. And she will drink quite a bit. She has a very hard eating as well, falls forward and now she isn't eating the wet yummy food she normally has been inhaling.

She is NOT confused. She knows exactly where she wants to go and how to get there. But once she gets there she doesn't seem to be able to make her body work right. And on the way there or back she does several roundabouts around the living room. comes in, circles the room a few times, will crawl through the end table bottom (NEVER done that before), like she is going through an obstacle course.

And then around the coffee table a few times, and bumping her head into things. And then she will try a couple of times to lay on the couch and when unable to she does the walk again. She always eventually can lay and actually fall asleep. Then will jerk up like something pinched her and slide off the couch and do the walk again. This goes on all day and night.

When we are sleeping she will sleep most of the night but will get up to potty or try to drink (I assume). She will walk around the room a few times, and then just stand against things with her head like she does any other time. Before I reminded her we had steps going up to the bed and now she is using them. This too is getting harder for her as well as getting off the couch. Until last week Hanna has never had a problem jumping on and off the bed and never used those little steps.

My heart is breaking for her. But I have to say if I lose my baby I am not going to be able to handle it at all! And of course I can't help it that my mind keeps going back to that. I just feel it in my gut..bad...

11 years ago I had a momma cocker and her daughter. Ruby was 14 months old when she went into liver failure, it happened extremely fast, in about a 2-3 week period we noticed odd things but nothing obvious. She would act strange and sick one day and then be fine for several days.

Then she started doing this with her head and hiding anywhere she could, I found her behind the toilet a few times. I made a vet appointment for her and then the next day her tummy was so hard and descended. So we got her in and they took one look at her eyes and gums and they were yellow. She was IN liver failure. She was gone the next day when she took a turn for the very worst. I lost Ruby's mother about a year later, she was only 6.

What is happening to Hanna is way to similar to what Ruby was doing, and in the same time line pretty much.

We bought Hanna from a breeder here in WA less then 2 weeks after Ruby passed away. I was devastated by little Ruby's death and I was hurting so much I begged my husband to let me get another cocker puppy. And that puppy was Hanna. I will NEVER buy another puppy without having a bile acid test done first, even if I have to pay for it myself! But crap, she is only 11.. She ain't old..Just older.

Today she still wont/cant eat. I put it in her mouth and it just falls out. Drinking has become almost impossible so I have been giving it to her by syringe. I am giving her the medicine the vet gave me and the special diet food (low protein) but if she can't eat it what am I supposed to do? I don't want to force it down her.

Oh good news. I went off to feed my dogs and got Hanna to eat some of the canned special diet. Yeah!
 
Are you certain your vet stated the cause of the illness was a liver "shunt" and not some other form of liver problem?

It is not a common sort of problem encountered and very unlikely to consist of any hereditary component. It is a developmental deficiency and more often is indicated in a dogs youth, say less than 2 yrs old.

In the past the condition might have been detectable via exploratory surgery, but maybe ultrasound in the hands of an experienced technician might be able to identify the exact nature and location of the shunt, if indeed that is the culprit.

For an explanation of liver failure at such an age as is your dog, I would be more inclined to suspect ingestion of a toxin, naturally occuring like fungus or mold or manmade like a cleaning agent or anti-freeze.

Did your vet suggest a surgical correction (for a shunt) might be possible?
 
I agree with what the above poster said, this seems rather unusual.

Also, I'm not sure I'd be feeding that food. Many veterinarians no longer believe a "low-protein" diet is optimal for liver problems. Instead, it's recommended that you feed food with more bioavailable protein...in other words, meat-based foods. Scroll down to "More Myths Busted": http://www.iheartpaws.com/articles/192/1/Diet-and-the-Older-Dog/Page1.html

Can you get a second opinion?
 
Mark J said:
Are you certain your vet stated the cause of the illness was a liver "shunt" and not some other form of liver problem?

It is not a common sort of problem encountered and very unlikely to consist of any hereditary component. It is a developmental deficiency and more often is indicated in a dogs youth, say less than 2 yrs old.

In the past the condition might have been detectable via exploratory surgery, but maybe ultrasound in the hands of an experienced technician might be able to identify the exact nature and location of the shunt, if indeed that is the culprit.

For an explanation of liver failure at such an age as is your dog, I would be more inclined to suspect ingestion of a toxin, naturally occurring like fungus or mold or manmade like a cleaning agent or anti-freeze.

Did your vet suggest a surgical correction (for a shunt) might be possible?
Click to expand...

All clinical signs and tests done point to a shunt. They can be born with this and it not show signs until the dog is older. It also can be an acquired shunt. We did not have an ultrasound done because of the cost, it is pretty expensive and doesn't always show anything. As for surgery, it costs a couple thousand at least. I love my dog but I do not have that kind of money. I have already spent over $500.00 at 2 different vets for tests and medication. So we decided (the vet and I) to try the medication and diet change route.

My dog has not been exposed to any toxins. A liver shunt however, does cause toxins to effect the brain and liver function. We started on Friday giving her the Laculose every 8 hours and on Saturday she was already feeling better and acting more normal. She is eating now, not a lot but at least she is able to eat now, as well as drinking:) We cannot get the anti-biotic until Monday because the Pharmacy doesn't have it on hand. But we will start her on that tomorrow when we get it. And then we are doing the low protein diet.

My vet did not suggest surgery but said it is an option that gives a better prognosis. However, we do not have the $600.00 for the ultrasound, or the couple thousands dollars for the surgery. Which are not without major risks anyhow. This is why we decided to go the medication and diet route as I stated before.
Thanks,
Karla
 
Swolek said:
I agree with what the above poster said, this seems rather unusual.

Also, I'm not sure I'd be feeding that food. Many veterinarians no longer believe a "low-protein" diet is optimal for liver problems. Instead, it's recommended that you feed food with more bioavailable protein...in other words, meat-based foods. Scroll down to "More Myths Busted": http://www.iheartpaws.com/articles/192/1/Diet-and-the-Older-Dog/Page1.html

Can you get a second opinion?
Click to expand...

You are correct that it is unusual, more so it is not something that happens a lot. Even my vet said that it is something they don't see a lot of.

Now, everything I have read, and it has been a lot, says low protein diet should be given to dogs with liver shunts. Especially dogs showing neurological brain symptoms. Which she was/is.. If a dog isn't having liver problems then of course low protein diets shouldn't be fed.

I found this on a surgery site, and it is what I have read on everything else I have read as well.
::
Treatment

  • If possible, we prefer to have the patient as stable as possible prior to surgery. This involves having your pet on a low protein diet and administering prescribed medication.
    • Antibiotics are used as bacteria, which are normally removed by the liver, by pass the liver and result in bacteria circulating in the blood.
    • Lactulose is a medication which traps toxins such as ammonia in the stool. It also decreases the transit time of the stool so that toxins are expelled quicker (thus the pet will defecate more often).
    • Low protein diet should be fed in order to decrease poisons that affect the brain.
  • Surgery is the best treatment for a shunt. Usually at the time of surgery the shunt can be identified (arrow showing large vessel) as is seen in photo below.
The Lactulose alone worked within 24 hours and she is doing much better already. I was shocked actually. She is even wiggling her but again;) But this morning she is refusing food again, but she doesn't always eat first thing in the morning anyhow. Other signs are still improved. I am hoping this will continue, but I am also aware it may not and although I am not ready for that I wont let her suffer either. So right now it's one day at a time.

I was really hoping to hear from other people who have gone through this as well when I posted. But I appreciate your reply very much.
Thanks,
Karla
 
I'm sorry about your dog. To be honest your first post didn't make much sense at all and I thought you were trolling.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk
 
manuel said:
I'm sorry about your dog. To be honest your first post didn't make much sense at all and I thought you were trolling.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Trolling? LOL ok.. Sorry that my post didn't make sense to you. I was pretty upset when I wrote it, but it makes sense to me anyhow.. Here are 2 pictures of my Hanna, first one is one of my favorite pics of her. The second picture is one I took the other night when she was doing so poorly and that was when I posted. As you can see she has her head "stuck" in between a small fridge and gun cabinet. She was doing this 24/7 for the last week. She isn't doing it now, she hasn't done it since We woke up early yesterday morning. Also, I didn't realize I posted this in looking for advice. Sorry about that.. Was looking more for support from others who knew about it or had been through it.
Thanks, Karla
IMG_0277.jpg100_5689.jpg
 
mommadog1 said:
You are correct that it is unusual, more so it is not something that happens a lot. Even my vet said that it is something they don't see a lot of.

Now, everything I have read, and it has been a lot, says low protein diet should be given to dogs with liver shunts. Especially dogs showing neurological brain symptoms. Which she was/is.. If a dog isn't having liver problems then of course low protein diets shouldn't be fed.

I found this on a surgery site, and it is what I have read on everything else I have read as well.
::
Treatment

  • If possible, we prefer to have the patient as stable as possible prior to surgery. This involves having your pet on a low protein diet and administering prescribed medication.
    • Antibiotics are used as bacteria, which are normally removed by the liver, by pass the liver and result in bacteria circulating in the blood.
    • Lactulose is a medication which traps toxins such as ammonia in the stool. It also decreases the transit time of the stool so that toxins are expelled quicker (thus the pet will defecate more often).
    • Low protein diet should be fed in order to decrease poisons that affect the brain.
  • Surgery is the best treatment for a shunt. Usually at the time of surgery the shunt can be identified (arrow showing large vessel) as is seen in photo below.
The Lactulose alone worked within 24 hours and she is doing much better already. I was shocked actually. She is even wiggling her but again;) But this morning she is refusing food again, but she doesn't always eat first thing in the morning anyhow. Other signs are still improved. I am hoping this will continue, but I am also aware it may not and although I am not ready for that I wont let her suffer either. So right now it's one day at a time.

I was really hoping to hear from other people who have gone through this as well when I posted. But I appreciate your reply very much.
Thanks,
Karla
Click to expand...

You may want to feed a low purine diet, it's not exactly the same as a low protein diet. The whole low protein diet thing is out-dated and not based on real research. What's important is that the protein is easily used by the body.

If you still want to do low protein, at least pick out a meatier one then the prescription diet. Most of the prescription diets I've seen cause more problems than they "treat". Unless the special food wasn't a prescription one, based on your original post I had assumed it was something like Hills.

I'm so glad she's improving :). Sorry I can't give more advice, I haven't had a dog with those exact problems (it's unlikely that anyone on here has but you never know). If you did want to explore the diet thing further then I could send you a link where you can contact a vet tech (who I know on another forum) who is very experienced with this kind of stuff and picking the right diets for dogs with medical problems :).
 
Poor Cocker Baby, so sorry. I don't have useful info to add, but I know how difficult it is to see them suffer.
 
Swolek said:
You may want to feed a low purine diet, it's not exactly the same as a low protein diet. The whole low protein diet thing is out-dated and not based on real research. What's important is that the protein is easily used by the body.

If you still want to do low protein, at least pick out a meatier one then the prescription diet. Most of the prescription diets I've seen cause more problems than they "treat". Unless the special food wasn't a prescription one, based on your original post I had assumed it was something like Hills.

I'm so glad she's improving :). Sorry I can't give more advice, I haven't had a dog with those exact problems (it's unlikely that anyone on here has but you never know). If you did want to explore the diet thing further then I could send you a link where you can contact a vet tech (who I know on another forum) who is very experienced with this kind of stuff and picking the right diets for dogs with medical problems :).
Click to expand...

What is a low purine diet? Yes I would appreciate the link. Vets don't really know everything, especially about diets.

Yes the vet gave us hills SD crap. I hate it but it's what they had. However I am taking it back because Hanna does not like it! She will eat some of the canned and none of the kibble. I think she only eats it because it's all I am giving her right now. She gave me the KD food which is actually for kidney, but it had a lower protein then the one for liver problems. It confuses the heck out of me. I have always fed my dogs high quality food with real, human grade meat, etc..

Thanks,
Karla
 
mommadog1 said:
What is a low purine diet? Yes I would appreciate the link. Vets don't really know everything, especially about diets.

Yes the vet gave us hills SD crap. I hate it but it's what they had. However I am taking it back because Hanna does not like it! She will eat some of the canned and none of the kibble. I think she only eats it because it's all I am giving her right now. She gave me the KD food which is actually for kidney, but it had a lower protein then the one for liver problems. It confuses the heck out of me. I have always fed my dogs high quality food with real, human grade meat, etc..

Thanks,
Karla
Click to expand...

I'll send you a PM.

Edit: It looks like you don't have PMs enabled. The person I'd recommend speaking to is the user DaneMama on the Dog Food Chat forum (http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/).
 
Last edited:
Swolek said:
I'll send you a PM.

Edit: It looks like you don't have PMs enabled. The person I'd recommend speaking to is the user DaneMama on the Dog Food Chat forum (http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/).
Click to expand...

I cannot find where to enable PM's. I have looked 10 times..shrug.. Thanks for the info, I have gone over there and joined. I called the vet again and talked to her nurse about the low purine diet and she called me back after talking to the vet. She said the KD diet with low protein will lower the purine. ANd this nurse was kind of ticking me off because I was telling her what I had read. She said not to believe everything I read online..LOL DUH.. But I asked her to just read this one site and she basically refused saying this is what the vet wants. Well, what am I? I don't have a say?

I do not care for the ingredients used in the KD diets, especially HILLS. And my dog HATES it. She wants to eat but she just doesn't like it, she will eat a little when she gets really hungry. Well how much good does this diet do if my dog doesn't like it and wont eat enough of it to sustain her life. She is going to starve to death at this rate.

I am looking at low purine foods and if I have to I will make up her meals myself. For dinner I made some scrambled eggs and mixed that and some smashed green beans in with some of the canned. She ate a bit, she was going to town on it actually. But she still didn't eat a lot. I tried to give it to her again reheated about an hour ago and she wasn't interested.

I also ordered some of this http://www.pureformulas.com/hepato-...?gdftrk=gdfV21979_a_7c354_a_7c905_a_7cRXP1006
Which I learned about from this web site: http://dogaware.com/health/liver.html
Thanks again,
Karla
 
PMs are disabled for moderated users to prevent abuse by spammers. You can PM once you're no longer moderated.
 
Update on Hanna

Good morning, it has been awhile since I was here. I was on a yahoo group that wasn't much help. Hanna was put on Lactulose, low protein diet, ammoxi.. and a few other things. She was better for awhile but still wouldn't eat the special diet food and we tried 3 different ones. I tried many different ways of feeding it to her and she turned her nose to it. She went form 22 pounds to 16, so I started making my own food for her and she would gobble it up once and then not ever again. She did this with most stuff I made for her, but the one thing she really liked was chicken breast and eggs. Everything else she wouldn't eat, but she has stopped having the neurological issues and seemed ok otherwise.

This feels like it has been going on for months but it's just been a little over a month. Then she started having episodes again and 2 weeks ago got so bad I thought I would have to put her to sleep. I was feeding her anything she would eat at that point, leftovers, like hamburger helper, stew, spaghetti, chicken breasts boiled, eggs, etc.. I figured if she was going to die then I was just going to give her whatever she wanted. And she was doing fine until 2 weekends ago.

So I decided that I would just let her go and so I quit giving her all medication and watched her closely, expecting her to get worse. Well that never happened. Two days before I quit giving her the meds she had that horrible episode. First day went by, no problems at all. So I figured it might take a couple days, still nothing happened. And it's now been going on 5 days since I quit all meds and not only has she not had any episodes, she has become more active, happier, playful and just back to normal. SHe even started eating some of the regular kibble I give everyone else, but I still give her chicken, and even hamburger (did that twice because it was all I had) and I added a little oil to her food for some extra fat.

I am totally confused why she is doing so much better after removing the meds, it just doesn't make ANY sense to me :unsure:. SHe wants to eat all the time now like she did before she got sick, even into the garbage can..lol I expected her to pass away when I withdrew meds and here she is thriving (so far), and that is fine with me if she doesn't pass away:naughty:

So that is pretty much it so far. I just wanted to update you guys and see what you thought..
Thanks,
Karla
 
Why on earth would you stop giving her her medications? You do understand her liver isn't working properly? Medications like lactulose are detoxifying her blood so she won't go into a coma. The diet restrictions are because of her liver disease as well. Talk to your vet and have him explain her condition so you're able to understand it. Let your vet know she's not eating so he/she can make some suggestions. At least let your vet know you've stopped treatment.
 
manuel said:
Why on earth would you stop giving her her medications? You do understand her liver isn't working properly? Medications like lactulose are detoxifying her blood so she won't go into a coma. The diet restrictions are because of her liver disease as well. Talk to your vet and have him explain her condition so you're able to understand it. Let your vet know she's not eating so he/she can make some suggestions. At least let your vet know you've stopped treatment.
Click to expand...

I explained why in my post, and sometimes letting nature take it's course is the more humane thing to do especially when it looked like she was dying anyhow, solwly. It felt it was very selfish of me to keep her "alive" just because I couldn't let go, when she was doing horribly on the meds and haviing the attacks anyhow. After almost 6 days now that she has been off the meds she is behaving normally, she hasn't had even one episode. And I did take her to the vet several times over the not eating issue and they would just have me try another brand and she would not touch any of it. She was starving to death,literally.. I believe I did the right thing.
 
It may seem to you on the surface that you did the right thing but I'd still at least talk to your vet to say you've stopped treatment and ask what consequences/signs to watch for that she may be in distress. If she's not getting the one med that detoxifies her blood you're slowly poisoning her and it would be more humane to let her go and not suffer a slow death. I'm sorry but it seems you're only thinking of yourself and keeping her here for you and not thinking of what's best for her. :(
 
Karla, do you suspect that your vet's diagnosis was in error? To what do you attribute her remarkable turnaround?
 
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