Old fashion cockers vs. current breed standards

When I went to my first dog show this year, I was surprised at how small and delicate the cockers looked. And, this was after I had Stormy, but, Robin said Stormy is big, just inside the standard.
 
Polly said:
When I went to my first dog show this year, I was surprised at how small and delicate the cockers looked. And, this was after I had Stormy, but, Robin said Stormy is big, just inside the standard.
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I was surprised when I saw the English cockers at the show. I imagined them to be much larger than Am. cockers.
 
My Cockers are all on the "typey" side . . . not as heavy-boned as they should be ideally, and they have the smaller, cutesy faces. Now, I like my Cockers that way, but I'm fully aware that it's not 100% to the breed standard. I once had a black female that was VERY sporting - larger, longer muzzle, good body, and she finished her title in three weekends. Her son is a multiple Best in Show and Best in Specialty Show winner (she was bred by the breeder after I had to give her back due to life issues). He is a lovely dog that is nicely built, and I consider him a good blend between sporty and typey.
 
Riley is one of the very delicate cockers. He is a beautiful boy. Dylan is slightly more sporty but his mother was an agility cocker while his father was a conformation champion. Is there a regional preference for types?
 
KLADCkrs said:
My Cockers are all on the "typey" side . . . not as heavy-boned as they should be ideally, and they have the smaller, cutesy faces. Now, I like my Cockers that way, but I'm fully aware that it's not 100% to the breed standard. I once had a black female that was VERY sporting - larger, longer muzzle, good body, and she finished her title in three weekends. Her son is a multiple Best in Show and Best in Specialty Show winner (she was bred by the breeder after I had to give her back due to life issues). He is a lovely dog that is nicely built, and I consider him a good blend between sporty and typey.
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Kelly, I'd love to see a picture of her.

karenwalksthedogs said:
Riley is one of the very delicate cockers. He is a beautiful boy. Dylan is slightly more sporty but his mother was an agility cocker while his father was a conformation champion. Is there a regional preference for types?
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That's a great question.
 
TiffanyNewCh.jpg

Ch Braewood KLAD In Black, AKA Tiffany
 
Tiffany looks marvelous. Kelly, you look so young in that photo. :)
 
I was 23 or 24 I think. Maybe a year or two older . . . I really can't remember.
 
manuel said:
That explanation was very helpful. It's interesting breeders have adopted a standard appearance based on an interpretive standard. I wonder if other countries' conform to our interpretation of the Am. cocker spaniel?
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The American Cocker standard was last changed in the summer of 1992. I'm not sure but probably to take a firm stand on (against?) Sable and probably accept Roan as well.

Prior to that both the Cocker standards were revised in 1988, mainly at the insistance of AKC to "standardize" all the breed standards in format. I believe that up to that point many of the standards were assigning point values to parts; heads, expression, angulation, tail carriage, etc., of the animals.

Other countries follow the lead of the FCI (Federation Cynologique Internationale, HQ'd in Brussels, Belgium) which adopts the standard of any breeds "home" country of origin, with a couple of interesting deviations; measurements are provided in metric (cm) and tails are not docked.
 
manuel said:
I was surprised when I saw the English cockers at the show. I imagined them to be much larger than Am. cockers.
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Another anomaly of the dog show world.

When the breed split was proposed, there were FOUR cocker varieties; ASCOB, Black, Parti-color, and English.

In order to differentiate the English from American, a request came from the AKC to show a more distinct difference I understand, so the American standard for the English Cocker was amended to call for an additional inch in height; females 15-16 inches, males 16-17 inches.

Unlike the ACS standard which calls for a disqualification for height deviation, the English standard does not, merely specifies preference to be given for adherence. Seems silly now, doesn't it?

In all other countries (except Canada?) the heights are the same.

Copper measures smack dab in the middle at 16 1/2 inch. While he was being actively campaigned, however, American Cockers which regularly accompanied him into the group ring, notably an ASCOB and a Parti, seemed to tower over him.
 
I know which dogs you're talking about Mark ;) One of them, FOR SURE, was over . . . gorgeous dog, but not within the height standard.

I don't see a significant size difference between ECS and ACS in Canada . . . they're pretty similar.
 
Mark, thanks for the input. There's an English cocker in my CGC class. She's 2yrs old and looks very tiny compared to Hoshi.
 
manuel said:
There's an English cocker in my CGC class. She's 2yrs old and looks very tiny compared to Hoshi.
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I'd bet tomorrows lunch money that she's a solid color, at least the odds are in my favor in that guess.

There was a trend started about thirty years ago to breed down in size. In England they were referred to as "pocket" Cockers, here as "minis" and even "teacups".

It still tends to pop-up (small size) occassionally in well-bred lines. A couple of the female pups we've placed in agility homes only measured 13 inches or a little more at maturity. Other than that they were absolutely beautiful.

One English Cocker, of absolutely normal size himself, from about 15 years ago would fairly consistently sire daughters under 14 inches and sons over 17 inches. At only a few months of age, the brothers and sisters would never be guessed to be from the same litter.

If your CGC pupil is solid colored and she is indeed really small, I would go so far as to guess that the name Gazpacho appears in her pedigree, even if three or four generations back.
 
She's mostly black with small areas of white on her face and chest if I remember correctly. I believe her owner wants to show her. I'll compare her to Hoshi again today in class.
 
Other countries do follow our standard...however, like I said it is interpretation. There are concrete stipulations...like size for instance. Dogs can't be bigger than the height requirement...if they are it is a disqualification. However I know there are dogs that are Champions that the judges have 'looked the other way' even though they were obviously oversized.

Size, Proportion, Substance
Size-- The ideal height at the withers for an adult dog is 15 inches and for an adult bitch, 14 inches. Height may vary one-half inch above or below this ideal. A dog whose height exceeds 15½ inches or a bitch whose height exceeds 14½ inches shall be disqualified. An adult dog whose height is less than 14½ inches and an adult bitch whose height is less than 13½ inches shall be penalized. Height is determined by a line perpendicular to the ground from the top of the shoulder blades, the dog standing naturally with its forelegs and lower hind legs parallel to the line of measurement. Proportion--The measurement from the breast bone to back of thigh is slightly longer than the measurement from the highest point of withers to the ground. The body must be of sufficient length to permit a straight and free stride; the dog never appears long and low.

Marval is 15 1/2 inches ON THE NOSE...he was that height at 6 months of age and I was a little nervous to say the least...he never went over. At the age of 4 when he was in California at ASC Nationals he won Best of Variety under the guidance of Bryon Santos...when he was in the ring for Best In Show...the parti cocker TOWERED over him...lol I would guess at least an inch and a half or more...that was and I do believe still is the top winning parti of all time. A beautiful dog...but over size. Do I believe he did not deserve the wins? No, but why have a size DQ if is not enforced?

I have the opposite problem, my dogs have a tendency to be too small :-(

In any event my point was people read things and interpret them different in their mind that is why we have different types its how breeders see them and apply them. I love a cutesy 'typy' cocker with very animated movement...but it is not correct. They are sporting dogs they are supposed to be able to perform for a long day in the field...so consequently I like a larger dog. Can you imagine one of those little faces picking up a bird?

Form follows function....the first law breeding that sometimes gets ignored
 
I haven't chimed in yet,

but always thought of the old fashioned cocker as a field coated or fieldy type cocker.

My first cocker was like that. After all, they had to have a longer snout to bring back that 'woodcock' (bird) they flushed. Coat didn't need to be long as it would get full of 'stuff' from flushing.

My dog "Dumpling" is undersized. Michele said she sometimes has females that are smaller - so I believe she brought in a big strappin female to help change that for next breeding. Said something about different coasts (west vs east) like them to be a little larger or smaller, more plush.
I have no idea really, but I hate it when people advertise their cockers as 'mini'... it makes me nuts.

I had a cocker named Freckles. Black & white parti that some thought looked like a springer. I think the coloring does that sometimes. Anyhow, after looking way back in his pedigree he had some excellent names in there with CH's, but I did always believe some of those lines were springer lines. I can't recall all the names, but Ging? and a few other recognizable ones popped up. Friend of mine told me that one of the lines did have issues with rage, and that is what eventually happened with Freckles. We tried for 8 years.

I think I'll try to dig up his pedigree just to double check on the name, but Hershey rings a bell (Not Bleumoon) so now I want to know.
 
Gina
Is Byron's avitar pix on FB of your beautiful boy?
 
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